Early Turner Records

THE EARLY TURNER RECORDS

The first record I have of the Turner line is the marriage at Shipton on Cherwell, Oxfordshire, on 20 October, 1817 of William Turner and Anna Maria Holland. The witnesses were John Turner, Mary Turner and Frances Turner. (After this referred to as 1st)

The Manor and the Parish were owned by William Turner who was born at Broadwell, Oxfordshire in 1761, son of William and Catherine. I believe that this was the rich Uncle William remembered in family stories here in Australia. (The birth records are supported by the statement in the 1851 census which was compiled by his son Edgar.) (There were probably 2 other children Henry 1749 and Edmund 1752). Uncle William was Lord of the Manor and he is recorded in the old church at Shipton-on-Cherwell. He bought the Manor with a loan from the Duke of Marlborough – perhaps it was from the Duke on vendor’s terms. The Manor is now owned by Richard Branson of Virgin fame. Uncle William also supported his nephew who is known as Turner of Oxford (to distinguish him from the more famous JWM Turner)

The Cassington Parish records of Baptism in the Bodleian Library of Oxford, UK,(now probably in the Public Records Office, Oxford) record the following children of William (1st) Turner, farmer, and Anna Maria (I have also seen Hannah Maria) (nee Holland) of Cassington, Oxfordshire.

Anna Maria born ? c. October 11, 1818
Catherine b. November 20, 1819. c. November 28, 1819.
William b. October 9, 1821. c. November 4, 1821
James b. December 17, 1823. c. December 21, 1823.
Mary b. June 1, 1825. c. July 3,1825.
George b. ? c. August 22, 1827.

There are no death or marriage records for the family in the Cassington Parish, It can be assumed that the parents were married in church (e.g. christenings) and that they were probably married in 1817 or 1818 as Anna Maria was probably their first child and they seem to have been reasonably fertile. Therefore the records at Cassington and Shipton on Cherwell are probably of the same people.

There have been no Turners at Cassington in living memory of the villagers. The parents probably moved there shortly after marriage (or he was an established farmer there before marriage) and left before the children were of marriageable age. The estates of the Duke of Marlborough extend to the west of Cassington and these records would be worth checking. The Duke of Marlborough lent 9900 of the 10,000 pounds for the purchase of the Manor at Shipton on Cherwell by the man we assume to be the Uncle of William. I think that it is reasonable to assume that the influences of Uncle saw or William established on the estate of the Duke.

In 1837 Anna Maria Turner married Thomas Dickenson at St Pancras Church in London with William Turner as a witness.

The census of 1841 records at Shipton on Cherwell, William Turner (independent means), Catherine Turner (25) and William (20) (Attorney) all born in the county. These are probably the children of William (Lord of the Manor). The ages in that census were rounded to the nearest 5 or 0 it is remotely possible that William may be the one born at Cassington in 1821.

Lucy Hall said that William was a student at the University. He later quarreled with his father and became a butcher. (The term butcher and master butcher probably meant owned a butchers shop, while carpenter, bricklayer meant builder.

1843 Catherine Turner (ancestor of Patricia Potter) married Thomas Rooks a stone mason in the parish Church of Walthamstow, Essex (now part of greater London). Her father William Turner is listed as a Butcher.

I think that this means that the family came from Cassington to London and William became a butcher or a butcher and farmer.

The next record of William (b1821) is the marriage, February 12, 1852,of William Turner, Butcher, Royal Street, London, son of William Turner, Farmer, to Jane Harris, Spinster, daughter of William Harris, bricklayer, at Trinity Church, Parish of Lambeth, County of Surrey according to the rites and ceremonies of the Established Church after banns. (See later for Perkins and Harris)

The witnesses were John Turner (not a brother unless further children were born after the family left Cassington and Anna Maria Dickenson who probably was William's (b1821) elder sister. Note that the first child born 9 months later was called William John.

The couple moved frequently as William (b1852) was born in Richmond, Jane at Wandsworth, Phillip at Kingston, James Robert (Bob) at Richmond and Vincent George Turner at Second Cross Road, Twickenham, son of the Master Pork Butcher. (It is possible that some of the children may have been born at the home of William (b1821) who possibly lived close to London.

Twickenham is now swallowed by Greater London but then was a village. The street remains with many of the 19th Cent. houses. I visited the area and spoke to an old lady who remembered the butcher's shop and slaughter yards there. They are now demolished and cottages etc. built on the site. They are the newer houses and a small motor and repair garage towards the pub end of the street on the northern side.

The children of William (1821) and Jane were:
William John b. November 22,1852
Alfred Perkins b. February 27,1854
Sarah Anne b. August 25,1856
Maria Susan b. June 9,1858
Jane Elizabeth b. April 2,1860
Catherine b. May 1,1863
Phillip Henry b. November 9,1865
James Robert b. November 22,1867
Vincent George b. July 1,1873

The boys were reported to have received an education at a good school, but not the daughters. (Lucy Hall)

There is a story that William (b1821) refused to get his butcher's cart off the road to allow the Queen to pass during the time he was in Twickenham. Another story about him recounts that he left daughter Jane out in the butcher's cart in the snow while he was in a tavern. When reprimanded by others he replied that she had a "Turner neck” i.e. she was tough. (Lucy Hall)

The family moved to Australia in 1875. The reason given by Lucy Hall was that the son, William (b1852), was a deserter from the navy and was being sought by the police. After deserting, he went to America for a few years, returning to England after he had met with an accident. (Perhaps scalded in the trade as pork butcher). Still sought by the police, he hid in the house of his girlfriend, Polly Perkins (never married her). (The Perkins name again.) He was adored by his mother, Jane, and they persuaded the family to come to Australia. (Lucy Hall)

They traveled as free passengers on the ship Tim Wiffler, leaving London 6 March, 1875 and arriving in Maryborough, June 16 1875. The Tim Wiffler was 1100 tons and carried 365 people. The Captain was Cotter and the Surgeon, Dr Spence. The ship sank on its return journey. Susan and Anne were in service and didn't want to migrate to Australia. They came to farewell the family and spent the last night on board the ship. There was a storm and the Tim Wiffler sailed with them. The ship came via South Africa and was becalmed in the Indian Ocean. Phillip was sick during the journey. The girls and boys were separated during the voyage and could only speak to cousins or sisters. The food was poor and other poorer families used to beg ham from the Turners. (Lucy Hall)

All had to take turns in the mess. Susan was accused of favoring the family in food distribution. Jane launched an over-vigorous defense and was locked in the bathroom but later released after an argument between William (b1821) and the Captain. (Lucy Hall)

Anne dressed as a ghost and frightened some Irish girls who drank holy water for protection. (Lucy Hall)

Tim Whiffler touched land first at Maryborough and the family disembarked there. The family was given a grant of land but William (b1852) persuaded them not to take it. Cec Beverly said the family was given ground at Tinana but William (b1821) liked the grog and he let the land go and started a butcher's shop. However he was recorded as a farmer at Scrubby Creek at the time of his death. Bess Benyon (Phillips) said that the family lived at Granville and at Burrum. They had a boarding house at Howard after William (b1821) became crippled with arthritis. Kate worked for no wages there but ran away and went into service for Miss Cunningham in Maryborough. (She reportedly smuggled her good shoes out of the house and hid them under a bridge during this escape). After William (b1821) died, Jane lived with Kate (Phillips) in Maryborough in Albert Street. At some stage George bought a house for Jane in Maryborough. Both Jane and William (b1821) were buried by a Methodist Minister.(They were married in an Anglican Church). William (b1852) was reputed to be bad tempered. He used to get money from his sisters, Jane and Susan, and when they refused to give it, he threatened to kill them. The death certificate reports that he married Ann Prior in Rockhampton aged 23. He had 2 sons. His wife reportedly died in an asylum. Beatie Reeves contacted William's (b1852) son, William, in Dutton Park,Brisbane. William's (b1852) children visited Vince (V.C.G.) Turner at Calgoa during the 1930's. William (b1852) died 26 October 1909 at Baroona Rd, Rosalie aged 56 years. He was a butcher. He probably had two sons Alfred William (b 1886) and George Robert (b 1889). Millicent Ann Turner(Harvey) says that there are descendants of William near Rosedale, in the Bundaberg area.

Phillip was crippled playing football before he came to Australia?? (He was 10 when he came). He died in Maryborough soon after arrival. The following is a extract from the records:- Died 1877 ,July 16, Phillip Henry Turner, C. of E., last residence E. of Maryborough, farmer's son, male, age 11 years. 8 months, born Richmond, Surrey, Officiating minister, buried 16/7/1877, Grave No. Section E G. 294,cause of death (could not be deciphered.), undertaker William Turner.

This is a series of recollections from Arthur Hall when he was elderly and living in a home.

In the butchers shop there was a machine which had to be turned everyday to make gut and bands from animal intestines. (in the UK) Will swam the river while D waited in the pork butcher's shop – found his way to Twickenham and then to London, then to America. Mother heard he was scalded in a pig vat. Returned 2 years after. Family coming to Australia decided in 2 weeks. Cook said ‘Gent to see you - go and see’. Mum (Susan Hall) looked through the window and got a shock. 'Hello Sue'. 'I don't know you' I'm your brother Will. Family going to Queensland. Is Annie going'. Got the day off to see if it was true.

Great-grandmother invested in drapery and lost - 75 when died—was a schoolteacher. Was Mrs Cox and Mrs Harris as she married twice. Mum left England on 2 March when 15 years old. Turned 16 on the boat 9June. Arrived Queensland July. Married at 18 24 May. Jessie born when Mum was 20. Came to Sydney when Jessie was 1y 10m. Papa came to Sydney 3 months before to find work.

Mum's father did not like doing the printing on world globes. Then his father told him to put his legs under someone else’s table.

Mum's uncle Harry was a monumental mason.

OTHER ANCESTRAL NAMES

HOLLAND

William Holland married Grace Brown at Stepney St. George 3/2/1788. A Hannah Maria was born 12/3/1797 at Stepney St. George in the East (London), the daughter of William and Grace Holland.

There is no strong basis to claim this is the same woman who married William (1st) and it may prove to be a coincidence. There seems to have been some family connection into London, based on William (b1821) and his sisters’ Catherine and Anna Maria movements and marriages.

HARRIS and PERKINS

In the records of Ascott under Wychwood

21/7/1798 John Perkins (b) m Suzannah Humphries (s)
21/3/1800 (c) Ann daughter of John and Suzannah
2/10/1803 (c) Jane daughter of John and Suzannah
5/6/1808 (c) Sarah daughter of John and Suzannah
6/12/1812 (c) Hannah daughter of John and Suzannah
10/1/1815 (c) James son of John and Suzannah, Shoemaker

In the records of Shipton under Wychwood

20/4/1790 (c) William Harris son of Isaac Harris (There is also a record of the birth of a William Harris at Aston Rowant at about the same time.)

Lucy Hall said Jane was highborn - a Perkins and that Jane's mother was Ann Perkins.

At her death in Maryborough, January 13, 1916, Jane’s age is given as 87.5 years suggesting she was born in mid-1829. In a paper written by Jane she gives her birthdate as July 2 ,1828. Jane Harris was christened 2/7/1828 at Ascott under Wychwood, daughter of William and Anne Harris of Brompton, Middlesex, Bricklayer. The death certificate gives her birth place as Oxfordshire, England. Jane Harris's father married twice and Jane was an only child, at least of the first marriage. Anne Harris died 28/5/1837 (coinciding with the date on a paper written by Jane Turner (Harris)). This makes Jane 9 when her mother died, again linking with reports. Jane was raised and educated by two maiden aunts after her mother's death. Cec Beverly reputed Jane was of Jewish descent. (this was probably only Cec’s wicked sense of humour and a reference to Jane’s large nose.)

The Perkins family appears to have been people of property. There is a row of Perkins Gravestones in the churchyard of Holy Trinity Church, Ascott under Wychwood. Inside the church is a memorial to Elizabeth Harris ( died aged 68 years) erected by her daughter Ester Boyes. Between Shipton U W and Ascott U W there is a lane known as Fernhill Lane or Perkins Lane.

Dahlia Scougall reportedly knows a Herbie and Dorothy Perkins who were friends of George and Bill Turner.

A sampler sewn by Jane as a child given by Lucy Hall to National Trust in New South Wales, and is now (?) in Newstead House. (I have not been able to trace it)

Lucy Hall said Jane was " a hard critter".
Other Turner records

It is interesting that there were two Turners, both artists, who were contemporaries:

Turner-of-Oxford

The lesser - known Charles Turner 1774- known as Turner of Oxford. His father was a Collector of Excise who was ruined owing to an error in his record keeping and his mother was Jane Turner who returned to her former employer (as keeper china at Blenhiem Palace) the Duke of Marlborough. (Possibly a Grace and Favour position)

Probably there is a relationship between William (Lord of the Manor), William (1st)) and Turner-of-Oxford, and hence the farm, perhaps on the estate of the Duke. Lucy Hall said that J.M.W. Turner was a first or second cousin of William (b1821), but the wrong painter may have been attached, as the other Turner is not well known in Australia.

The baptism records of Woodstock Parish record (Vol 314) the following children of Charles and Jane Turner:

Charles b. August 31,1774.
Edward b. September 26,1776.
Samuel b. September 3,1777.
Charlotte b. February 1 ,1779.
Fanny b. August 11, 1780.
Louisa b. October 1, 1782.
Caroline b. June 13 , 1783.
Jane b. September 9, 1785.

Joseph Mallord William Turner

J.M.W. Turner (1775 to 1851) and came from a large family and thus there are plenty of chances of the indirect relationship suggested by tradition.

The data below is somewhat patchy but chances are that descendants of these families have made studies of their relationships to one of the most prominent painters of the 19th Century.

Further information may be contained in the Suit in Chancery, Trimmer v Danby decision, March,19, 1856 (Ref. J. Lindsay, J.M.W. Turner. Granada, London.)

Another source lists a case over the will in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury,January 16, 1852, Judgement, August 5,,1852; proved September 6, 1852. As the relatives attempted (successfully) to overturn J.M.W. Turner's will, there should be an extensive listing. The five distant relatives are stated (Norwich,April 18,1966) to have "broken the will" and the magnificent gesture went up in very un-Turnerish smoke". Biographers of J.M.W. Turner were:

A.J.Finbury Life ofJ.M.W. Turner (1939) (Oxford and Clarendon Press)
B.FalkTurner the Painter (1938).
G.W.Thornbury Life of J.M.W. Turner (1st ed.1862;2nd ed. 1887)

John Turner (1739-1765),saddler of South Molton, married Rebecca Knight (d1800) and had five sons and two daughters including William Turner (1745-1829). William Marshall, butcher of St.Mary, Islington, married Sarah Mallord (daughter of Joseph Mallord, salesperson of St. Mary, Islington) and had four children including Mary (b1839)

William Turner (1745-1829), barber, married Mary Marshall (1739-) in 1733(?) and had five ? children, John, Joseph Mallord William (1775-1851), Jonathon, Price, Joshua and Mary.

John was Governor of the Workhouse and Master of the Poorhouse at Barnstable.

J.M.W. Turner never married but had two illegitimate daughters with Sarah Danby, Evelina (b1799-1800) who in 1817 married Joseph Dupius of the colonial service. The second, Georgina, apparently did not marry and died before her father. There were rumors of a son but nothing is known for certain.

Jonathon was a baker and biscuit-maker at Walcot. Price was a saddler at Exeter. It was his son, Thomas Price who was reported to have broken the will. Joshua was a storekeeper at the Excise Office, London. Mary was married.

Other Turners

Lucy Hall told me that William (b1821) was a student at Oxford or apprenticed to a globe-maker and that his father was a map-maker at the University. There was also a great-uncle, William , who was wealthy?) And used to visit the family of William and Jane Turner at Christmas when they lived near London. (Perhaps she had her generations or relationships wrong.)

There was a Rev.E.T.Turner at Brasenose College, Oxford and a William H. Turner of Bodleiean Library, Oxford who wrote "Selections from Records of Early Oxford". I do not have the dates but they may be worth checking in view of Lucy Hall's recollections. There is also a tradition that the family had title to Hereford Hall (family of Princess Diana) and/or to a hereford stud and perhaps also to a clydesdale stud. There is a story that the Australian family was unable to come up with a number or the money required to mount a challenge. This may well refer to property of Harris, Turner or Perkins.

OTHER NAMES

DICKENSON

St. Pancras (London) 15/5/1837 Anna Maria Turner m Thomas Dickenson by banns, witnesses William Turner and John Leach. (If this was the sister of William (b1821), she would have been aged 17 years and William under 16.) William later had Anna Maria Dickenson as a witness at his wedding in London